using automation. no you have owners of dock yards saying no, we're going to take that away or freeze it for people who come later. >> but why do you want to freeze business? why stick business in the mud right now so we can't progress? i'll give you a personal example. i was a floor trader, a human being on a trading floor. guess what happened? they figured out machines could do it better, faster and cheaper and what happened? we were displaced. business needs to progress and compete. if we don't get prices down to compete, all this business is going to go elsewhere. >> that's agreed but that's not the issue. the fact is that you have automation on the docks. you don't have containers that go right from the ships to the trucks as you know all up and down the coast and we have the panama canal now, bigger than ever. >> that's what they're fighting, automation. >> no, they're saying -- >> fred mcmahon said they're fighting automation. >> no, they're not. >> the machines have taken over but the point is